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- May 15, 2015
- #1
greybeard
Airman 1st Class
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- Oct 25, 2011
Hi all!
I was unable to find graph showing coefficients of lift and drag as a function of angle of attack about early Mustangs (P-51A/B/C/D) airfoil. What I'm looking for it's like following graph:
extracted from NACA report No.824 "SUMMARY OF AIRFOIL DATA", dated 1945, that seemingly should include all airfoil data but misses the 45-100.
Any help?
- May 18, 2015
- Thread starter
- #2
greybeard
Airman 1st Class
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- Oct 25, 2011
It's curious this lack of info about the most famous WW2 American fighter...
Thanks anyway,
GB
- May 24, 2015
- #3
Shinpachi
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Be patient, greybeard
When I asked about a B-29 nose art, there was no answer for half a year but several people were kindly checking to answer.
- May 27, 2015
- #4
H
hlppls45
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- Aug 2, 2007
The Mustang airfoil was not a standard airfoil but used the basic airfoil data combined with modifications to meet specific pressure distributions along the wing panel. If you have one of the drawing cd sets, the information can be found in the wing analysis document.
- May 27, 2015
- #5
drgondog
Major
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- Jun 28, 2006
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It was a NAA proprietary airfoil design modified from a NACA Laminar flow airfoil.. IIRC the pressure distribution desired then was washed through an NAA proprietary Theodorsen transformation to generate the X-Y co-ordinates.
- Jun 1, 2015
- #6
Algernon
Airman
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- Jun 28, 2010
Gentlemen, Mustang airfoil — but only from "other side". German report from 1943. (Measured on Mustang mainplane, in 1943 — most probably from any forced-landed or belly-landed airplane.)
Text in Czech language —
scan 0001 : drag coefficient (x, or horizontal), lift coefficient (y, or vertical)
Mustang airfoil compared with NACA 2415 airfoil
scan 0002 : pressure distribution
ssací strana : suction side (or upper wing surface)
tlačná strana : lower wing surface
scan 0003, 0004 : Airfoil coordinates, scan 0004 compared with NACA 6 laminar flow airfoils (NACA 65,2—016)
More details probably in:
"Bericht Braunschweig 43/7 (1943)"
H. Doetsch "Versuche am Tragflügelprofil des North American Mustang", FB 1712/1 (1943), 1712/2
K. Bussmann "Messungen am Laminarprofil P-51 Mustang", FB 1724 (1943)
Breford Möller "Messungen am Originalflügel des Baumusters P-51 Mustang", FB 1724/2
In german (or D.V.L.) this airfoil is described (in five digits) as 1,6—50—13,6—0,825—39
1.) is 1.6 per cent maximum airfoil camber
2.) maximum camber in 50 per cent airfoil chord line
3.) maximum thickness
4.) radius (in per cent) of leading edge
5.) max. thickness is on 39 per cent of airfoil chord
- Aug 30, 2015
- Thread starter
- #7
greybeard
Airman 1st Class
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- Oct 25, 2011
Algernon,
I apologize for the long delay, but I had lost track of this thread.
Thank you heartily: the search must have been hard and labourious!
Definitely, it looks an unique case!
It's a pity that it lacks of diagram of lift as a function of angle of attack. Indeed, there's the partial derivative of Cz as a function of alpha, but too much time has passed from when I performed an integral last time!
Thank you all for your support and additional information!
Kind regards,
GB
- Sep 5, 2015
- #8
T
tanze
Recruit
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- Oct 2, 2006
Hello,
I found some data on an italian article from 1947.
Italian researches were doing reverse engineering by comparing laminar airfoils from wrecks or captured aircrafts.
Attached are at least some data coming from a P51 shot down by the luftwaffe during the war.
Reynolds nr. was around 2.7*10^6
- Jan 10, 2022
- #9
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
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- Jan 16, 2017
- Sarnia, ON
greybeard said:
It's a pity that it lacks of diagram of lift as a function of angle of attack. Indeed, there's the partial derivative of Cz as a function of alpha, but too much time has passed from when I performed an integral last time!
I found R & M 2251 which was referenced in Algernon's post. It has a lift vs AoA curve on the last page. I'd suggest reading the whole report as it discusses the limitations of the models and wind tunnels that were used.
I know it is an old thread.
Edited to add: R&M 2222 Fig. 157
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Last edited:
- Jan 16, 2022
- #10
T
thunderbird
Airman
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- Jul 8, 2009
Caution against using 2-d section data to predict 3-d wing data, for not the least of which is spanwise thickness ratio changes, body effects. and wingtip effects, plus other geometry effects such as taper ratio, aspect ratio, wing twist. But whadoo-eye-kno about whadyoo-kno
- Apr 12, 2022
- #11
G
georgecayley
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- Apr 12, 2022
Hi, I'm a warbirds enthusiast new to the forum.
I've been thoroughly reviewing many (online) sources of documentation regarding P-51 Mustang, my interest is centered in P-51's aerodynamics.
So far I could neither find the aerodynamics characteristics (cl, cd, cm charts) nor the coordinates tables for the NAA/NACA 45-100 airfoil.
A book from NASA special publications series explains in great detail the development of LAMINAR FLOW WING between NACA and North American Aviation (NAA) and includes a variety of original documents from different sources: The Wind and Beyond, Volume II (James R. Hansen editor, NASA, 2007 SP-4409, pdf version downloaded from https://history.nasa.gov/sp4409-vol2.pdf).
Chapter 4, document 4-26(d) of the mentioned book (see page 890) contains the "foundational" document regarding P-51 wing design: North American Aviation, Inc., Manufacturing Division, Engineering Department, Inglewood CA, "Aerodynamic Load Calculations for Model NA-73 Airplane," North American Report NA-5041, March 1941.
But unfortunately the book shows only EXCERPTS and a couple of low quality images of the original document (see attached).
Does anyone know this document?
The title in page 884 states "(d) Excerpts from North American Aviation, Inc.,...Report NA-5041, 3 March 1941, RA file 290, LHA, Hampton Va.". I understand RA file 290 refers to Research Authorization no. 290 "Investigation of effect of thickness and mean camber line shape on airfoil characteristics" and LHA stands for Langley Historic Archives.
Is it possible to contact NASA Langley Archives asking for a digitized version of this document?
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- Apr 12, 2022
- #12
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
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I have no idea what you said but I liked the way you said it. Welcome to the Forum.
- Apr 12, 2022
- #13
G
georgecayley
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- Apr 12, 2022
SaparotRob said:
I have no idea what you said but I liked the way you said it. Welcome to the Forum.
Thanks, I apologize for my english...
I know the document I've attached is useless due to low image quality, but perhaps it sparks the search for the original one within the forum.
- Apr 12, 2022
- #14
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
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No, you misunderstood me. Your English is perfect. My grasp of the technical, not so much.
- Apr 12, 2022
- #15
G
georgecayley
Recruit
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- Apr 12, 2022
SaparotRob said:
No, you misunderstood me. Your English is perfect. My grasp of the technical, not so much.
I'm doing my best! thanks again
- Apr 13, 2022
- #16
S
special ed
1st Sergeant
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Your English is better than mine.
- Apr 15, 2022
- #17
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
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special ed said:
Your English is better than mine.
- Jun 3, 2022
- #18
T
thunderbird
Airman
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- Jul 8, 2009
Just a quick point. Its very misleading to try to extract airplane performance from 2D wing section data. The specific problem is the flow is very three dimensional, from the wing flow mixing with the body flow at the wing root, to the affects of the propeller slipstream, to the wing flow moving towards the wingtip where it leaves as a vortex. And of course, laminar flow seen in the lab is nearly impossible to replicate in the real world. Most of the mustang's low drag numbers compared to its peers, comes from the attention paid to smoothness in manufacturing (in an attempt to obtain laminar flow!), rather than actually achieving laminar flow.
- Jun 8, 2022
- #19
Aeroweanie
Airman
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- Jan 17, 2021
The coordinates of the P-51B and P-51D airfoils are available on the UIUC airfoil website (I put them there). You can download a copy of Xfoil from the MIT website and use it to recreate the 2D airfoil characteristics. But, as already noted, be aware that the 3D wing characteristics are a bit different. You need a 3D analysis, as shown in my avatar.
As to North American Report NA-5041, I don't have a copy of it, but will try to get it from some sources I have.
Here is a technical paper I published on the P-51 aerodynamics a many years ago.
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- Jun 11, 2022
- #20
Aeroweanie
Airman
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- Jan 17, 2021
In the image shown below, you can see that the P-51 wing airfoils vary across the span (BL is the distance from the aircraft centerline in inches).
I've also attached images of the pressure distribution calculated on a P-51D at representative flight conditions. These images show that the wing pressure distribution varies quite a bit across the span.
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